0:00 I didn't quit my job. I got laid off. Copy link
0:02 And I made a decision that I'm not going back to bed. Copy link
0:04 Catastrophe is going to happen and you're not going to be prepared for it. Copy link
0:07 You're going to end up on the street. Copy link
0:08 I never thought in my wildest dream that this would happen. Copy link
0:13 I remember distinctly in the 12-day war that I came out of our home. Copy link
0:18 And the street is empty. No cars. No nothing. Copy link
0:21 It's a life that is moving towards more surrender to life. Copy link
0:25 Let's dance with life. Copy link
0:34 I'm Abbas and this is Del be Del Podcast Copy link
0:36 conversations about stories we live but rarely tell Copy link
0:40 Nahal built the tech life that she was supposed to want Copy link
0:43 but then grief cracked it open Copy link
0:45 and sent her through this 10 year journey Copy link
0:48 through meditation hall Copy link
0:50 through silent retreats Copy link
0:52 and medicine ceremonies in the Amazon Copy link
0:54 And then she found herself in the middle of two wars in Iran. Copy link
1:00 She found herself in Iran at war workouts, not once, twice. Copy link
1:04 Because practice is not what you do on a cushion. Copy link
1:07 It is what pulls you when the ground beneath you is shaking. Copy link
1:11 This is our conversation. Copy link
1:14 Hello, Nahal. Thank you for coming here. Copy link
1:18 Welcome to the third episode of Del be Del Podcast. Copy link
1:21 Glad to have you here. Copy link
1:23 Salam, Abbas, June. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Copy link
1:27 Let's jump in. I want to ask you a question from your travel to Iran last spring. Copy link
1:34 Sort of in the middle of your story, you wanted to do a short-ish visit to Iran and your stay became much longer. Copy link
1:46 Tell us what happened. Copy link
1:49 So I was planning to go to Iran for about five weeks. Copy link
1:55 I was getting there towards the end of April, last week of April, and coming back end of June type of thing. Copy link
2:04 Before I get to Iran, I made a stop in Europe to see a dear friend. Copy link
2:09 And on the last night of a super fun visit, I twisted my left ankle. Copy link
2:15 I got myself to Iran one way or the other. Copy link
2:19 and there I found out that I've torn a ligament and um they recommended that I stay for two to Copy link
2:25 three months of physical therapy so then I was like okay I'm not gonna go back end of June and Copy link
2:32 um sorry end of May end of May I was planning to go back I decided to stay for that two months for Copy link
2:38 eight weeks of therapy and mid-June uh Israel attacked Iran for me was very unexpected Copy link
2:48 there were talks of war there were like possibilities of attacks but i didn't think Copy link
2:55 at all that i'm gonna wake up to sounds of explosions in tehran like that was Copy link
3:03 super shocking i remember that night i was sleeping and i usually see with like earplugs Copy link
3:12 an eye mask so it's hard to wake me up but I woke up to a really big sound and like my heart skipped Copy link
3:21 when I woke up from that there was something in me knew that this is not a thunder but then my mind Copy link
3:31 immediately went to denial and it was like I think the you know we have this metal door Copy link
3:35 in the garden I think that was unlocked and it slammed that's why the sound the sound felt like Copy link
3:42 metal like pouring like dropping like from like fifth floor down something like that we have like Copy link
3:48 satellite dishes that one of them break loose and fall to the backyard it the sound was like a metal Copy link
3:54 like hitting ground and I was like I think it was the metal door in the backyard and I just put my Copy link
3:59 eyewass down and went to sleep two minutes later my mom ran into my room and as soon as she entered Copy link
4:03 I knew that this was not a door, this was not a thunder. Copy link
4:09 And I pulled out my phone to check like Chabad 40, Copy link
4:12 which is a telegram channel that posts news. Copy link
4:17 There was nothing. Copy link
4:19 And maybe within a couple of minutes, Copy link
4:20 the first news came that there were explosions happening. Copy link
4:23 And in maybe 10, 15 minutes, the first news, Copy link
4:26 like Axios or some major news said that Israel was attacking. Copy link
4:30 And then this is like basically 15, 20 minutes. Copy link
4:33 we were like okay Israel attacked again my mind in denial was like okay this is like a one-off Copy link
4:39 attack like you know last year they attacked and they dropped some bomb and we dropped some bomb Copy link
4:43 and then it's done so I went back to bed and I slept um woke up around like eight in the morning Copy link
4:51 turned on the news and it I was shocked to see there were so many attacks as there were so many Copy link
4:59 military commanders that like it was I was like this is insane like unbelievable to me unbelievable Copy link
5:07 that this level of attack is happening in Tehran not at the nuclear sites not at like remote places Copy link
5:14 this is hard up Tehran I remember I think that same day with my mom we went to still still there Copy link
5:21 was a part of me that thought oh this is like a one-day thing you know they're gonna do this and Copy link
5:25 Iran is going to respond and like this is not a in my mind I wasn't still this is going to be an Copy link
5:33 ongoing war on that day we went and saw some of the attacks that's like the closest to us which was Copy link
5:39 maybe like a 10 minute drive you could actually see it because it was like a very tall building Copy link
5:42 and they hit the top part of it and again I remember that feeling of like seeing that top Copy link
5:47 part like exploded like that image again like I was like wow this is like hard up there on this Copy link
5:54 like five minutes away from where i live and again like i remember that the shock and then the damage Copy link
6:00 on the the other buildings in front like the all the windows exploded and again like all of this was Copy link
6:07 like i never thought in my wildest dream that this would happen in tehran yeah it's it's quite a shock Copy link
6:16 To be there and not having expectations, we knew about the possibility of war, but actually observing it materializing is a different story. Copy link
6:28 I want to take a step back and we'll come back to your war experience. Copy link
6:34 And not only this war, you stayed for the other war as well. Copy link
6:38 I want to go to the more beginning of your story in the U.S. Copy link
6:45 you immigrated to the u.s um in 2006 2006 yeah to pursue your degree and you stayed here you Copy link
6:58 started your job in tech tell us that story those the first decade or so in the u.s how did that Copy link
7:05 material um so i came here for a master's in computer science i studied the same like bachelor's Copy link
7:16 in iran and then i came for a master's um it was kind of like both my parents they studied in the Copy link
7:22 us and they went back to iran so this was kind of like i like a path that was laid for me it wasn't Copy link
7:28 that i really thought about it which was like oh they did this i'm gonna do this type of a thing Copy link
7:33 um and then i started working i was in l.a. first and then i moved to sf for work Copy link
7:39 um i thought i'll be staying a very short time in sf but i've left here since um Copy link
7:48 my experience in tech it was like the feeling of it is like meh like you know there were highs Copy link
7:55 there were lows but mostly and meh like you know uh i chose basically computer science out of like Copy link
8:01 oh the market is good for this it's baseball i didn't even think to choose something that is Copy link
8:07 more heart aligned like that was not like basically the models my parents that was not in the equation Copy link
8:14 of like choosing a career you pick it out of like more logical decision making of like Copy link
8:20 what provides then you know so it was something that i could get good at but my heart was never Copy link
8:28 in it and there were parts about it that was extremely difficult for me and one specific Copy link
8:35 thing is like how the tech interviews go like I I'm very good at like taking written exams I always Copy link
8:43 like outperform what I know if it's written but face to face especially if they want me to solve Copy link
8:50 things I'm one of those people that freezes so the experience of going through tech interviews was Copy link
8:55 really traumatizing for me um so that was one of the first glitches of like I'm not sure if this is Copy link
9:03 I'm not sure if I can do this interview thing on and on and on for my life but like the first my Copy link
9:11 first job when I wanted to leave that job I remember I worked on myself to go into my manager's office Copy link
9:18 and I was like whatever you do just don't cry and as soon as I entered Copy link
9:24 i sat and i was like you know i've decided to leave and i started crying and then he was like Copy link
9:29 why are you crying you've decided to leave i said but these um what i want to point out there were Copy link
9:35 like things that were like a mismatch for my character like the interviews the leaving the Copy link
9:40 constant changing and another difficult part was this thing that i felt that i need to prove myself Copy link
9:45 over and over again every time i start a job and it's like i put so much effort to like again Copy link
9:52 like proving that I can do this. Copy link
9:53 And when I did it a couple of times, it became exhausting. Copy link
9:57 So it was already like maybe I'm seven, eight years of experience. Copy link
10:01 And it was already something boiling in me that like, Copy link
10:03 I don't know if I can do this for another 20, 30 years. Copy link
10:05 I don't see myself like doing this. Copy link
10:08 Then in 2014, a major event happened in my life. Copy link
10:14 I found out that my dad has a terminal in this. Copy link
10:21 I still remember that call when my mom called and told me and my brother the diagnosis. Copy link
10:28 Like, my world shattered. Copy link
10:34 I still, like, tear up when I remember that moment. Copy link
10:38 And we knew that he's not going to survive it. Copy link
10:40 And I felt, like, the deepest pain that I've ever felt in my life. Copy link
10:46 like the depth of the pain that is like this um this thing is happening i'm losing the one of Copy link
10:54 my dad the dearest person in my life and i can't do anything about it and i have to see him suffer Copy link
11:01 uh he has he got alas and it's like a very brutal disease like um and his was also combined with Copy link
11:08 frontotemporal dementia which meant not only he's losing physical peelies but like his Copy link
11:12 character to us like for him i don't know if he understood it but for us he's also changing as a Copy link
11:17 person like the person that i knew because of the dementia so it's like losing seeing him losing all Copy link
11:23 these like physical abilities and like mental abilities it was devastating and i also come Copy link
11:31 like maybe a little bit back i come from a family that is not religious at all not spiritual at all Copy link
11:37 to some extent against any of it religious especially after like living in islamic country Copy link
11:43 it became even more of an aversion because it was a tool that we used to suppress and but also Copy link
11:49 spirituality was more like oh these wee things like uh like we don't know you know we're like Copy link
11:55 science people like logic and science and like um emotions and stuff are like put them aside Copy link
12:03 you never make decisions Copy link
12:06 with Copy link
12:08 your emotions or how you feel Copy link
12:10 it's always logic, science, what is proven Copy link
12:12 you know, that's the background Copy link
12:14 so I'm now in Copy link
12:15 the biggest crisis of my life Copy link
12:18 with really not Copy link
12:20 much Copy link
12:22 internal resources to be able Copy link
12:24 to hold that pain Copy link
12:25 like the logic, no matter Copy link
12:28 how much I argue with myself Copy link
12:30 it's not going to Copy link
12:32 help me Copy link
12:33 just carry through that pain you know the tools I had they're very limited and one day this is like Copy link
12:43 my parents came to the U.S. this was the first time I'm seeing my parents after we knew that my dad is Copy link
12:49 dying I was at their house and there was a book there and this book was recommended to like us Copy link
12:59 by my one of my uncles so one of my uncles maybe if starting a couple years before that Copy link
13:07 he started becoming more spiritual he especially like iranian like sufis and reading more lanah Copy link
13:13 and hafez and that kind of a thing he would write poems and then he would come tell the kids of the Copy link
13:19 family about it and almost again like coming from a family that scientists and like all this stuff Copy link
13:25 or like wee stuff. Copy link
13:27 We kind of listened, Copy link
13:28 but it went from one ear to the other ear Copy link
13:30 and we almost like we would laugh at him Copy link
13:33 that, you know, he's gone a little bit like woo-woo Copy link
13:35 or, you know, that was the thing. Copy link
13:39 Fast forward, like I'm at my parents' house. Copy link
13:41 That book is there. Copy link
13:42 The name of the book is, Copy link
13:44 I don't know how they translate it in English. Copy link
13:46 In Farsi is Tata Khorizad, Copy link
13:47 which is like extra thinking or overthinking Copy link
13:50 by an Iranian philosopher, Jafar Mosafah. Copy link
13:52 I picked up that book. Copy link
13:53 I don't know why. Copy link
13:55 I read the first five, ten pages of it, and I thought this is talking about, this is telling me why I'm feeling this, like, this pain. Copy link
14:05 What is this suffering? Copy link
14:07 Like, it's telling me this is how your mind works. Copy link
14:09 This is what it's doing, that you're in this state. Copy link
14:12 To me, I was like, whoa. Copy link
14:15 Like, I was like, how come I did not know this? Copy link
14:18 It was kind of like the book felt like a download. Copy link
14:20 It was as if it was like something sent that day for me to pick up and like suddenly open up this whole new chapter in my life. Copy link
14:29 So I read the book and in the book it said a lot of things that I basically didn't understand. Copy link
14:33 But there were things that I was like, this is exactly describing my internal state. Copy link
14:40 And it seems like it's telling me that I can do things about it to make it better. Copy link
14:44 Although the things were not that clear. Copy link
14:48 like for example he's talking about more or meditation and i'm like what meditation yeah okay Copy link
14:52 meditation let me let me find some meditation and then i find this app headspace i started meditating Copy link
14:59 with it for five ten minutes it has all these again like i wasn't sure what is this supposed Copy link
15:03 to do for me but and this book said that this is this is good for you this is going to help you Copy link
15:08 with all these like suffering with all these pain that you're feeling to recap you are in the middle Copy link
15:13 of your father's illness you're dealing with that yeah you were searching for a tool yeah to help Copy link
15:21 and i i would say this i wasn't consciously searching i felt that's like you have to endure Copy link
15:28 this that's why i think like that book appeared as like hey you know there you can actually do Copy link
15:34 something about this like it wasn't that i was in search of it it was that it appeared in my life Copy link
15:39 You know, for me, I thought this is, you have to endure this, right? Copy link
15:43 Like, it's painful, but it is what it is. Copy link
15:47 There's not much to do about it. Copy link
15:48 Or I didn't even think that there is a thing. Copy link
15:50 But when I read that book, like, I was like, oh, it seems like there is something to, you can help this state. Copy link
15:56 So I started with this, like, five, ten minutes per day meditation. Copy link
16:03 Fast forward a year. Copy link
16:06 My dad passed away. Copy link
16:09 he Copy link
16:12 purposefully chose Copy link
16:14 not to Copy link
16:16 basically be attached to any device Copy link
16:18 because he could have elongated this Copy link
16:20 process of dying Copy link
16:23 but he was very Copy link
16:24 clear that he doesn't want to be Copy link
16:26 connected to any device so Copy link
16:29 he died Copy link
16:30 I think within less than a year and a half Copy link
16:32 from the time he was diagnosed Copy link
16:37 and that was a blessing that he chose not to elongate this process because Copy link
16:47 from my point of view it was so painful to see how much he is suffering and for me I felt like Copy link
16:55 I'm not able to endure more pain either like it's like I can't even hold more pain I feel like I'm Copy link
17:01 my capacity for holding pain i remember so alice is um different versions there are versions that Copy link
17:11 you start losing like mobility in the legs or versions in the hand and there's a version that Copy link
17:15 it starts in your like like you know eating like in this area my dad was this type um Copy link
17:22 and i remember that like and he always lost so he lost speech kind of throughout like halfway through Copy link
17:29 the um that last year and then but he always loved running and walking and he kept it till the end Copy link
17:37 like he he didn't lose that he died before that but I remember distinctly like I was in Iran a Copy link
17:43 few weeks before he passed I went to Iran for five six weeks um and I remember like in this Copy link
17:50 in ALS when the motor neurons are dying um you can see them kind of like jumping under the skin Copy link
17:55 so it's like you would see pulses under the skin so you know they're they're they're gonna die Copy link
18:02 so then i'm sitting with my dad and i see on his legs that the the neurons are like pulsing and Copy link
18:08 like my heart is dropping my heart is like i can't see him lose walking Copy link
18:19 and he died before he lost walking and it was that's why i say it was a blessing Copy link
18:29 thanks for sharing Copy link
18:31 Nahal Copy link
18:33 we have shared experiences Copy link
18:35 my dad passed away Copy link
18:39 two years ago Copy link
18:40 and Copy link
18:41 he didn't make the choice Copy link
18:44 for himself Copy link
18:46 and Copy link
18:48 we did that Copy link
18:49 deciding what care Copy link
18:52 he might want Copy link
18:54 And that was one of the most difficult things I've gone through, honestly, to see would he want to go through this or not. Copy link
19:05 Should we do the dialysis and extend his life as he is suffering through and we have no idea what he desires or not. Copy link
19:13 So I relate to this wholeheartedly. Copy link
19:20 Was it difficult when your dad initially said that, you know, I'm just going to let go? Copy link
19:29 Accepting that, how was that for you? Copy link
19:32 Yeah, the decision was first because, you know, he was losing ability to eat. Copy link
19:37 The question was like, do you want to have something to feed you directly to stomach? Copy link
19:46 And we had a couple conversations because there was a part of me that was like, maybe I want him to do it. Copy link
19:55 But then there was also this part of like, I knew that this is, this is a fatal disease. Copy link
20:00 It's not that with this, he would eventually get cured. Copy link
20:07 Like this, it would just slow down the process. Copy link
20:10 So after I think a couple of times that we talked and I think my mom talked to my dad, all that stuff. Copy link
20:17 we were all settled that okay Copy link
20:21 when like I was at peace with his decision you know and Copy link
20:31 again late later when also he passed I was really grateful for that decision Copy link
20:37 although like I remember like the day that the call came so I was in Iran I got to spend Copy link
20:44 really intimate moments with my dad in those last couple weeks. Like I would feed him, I would Copy link
20:50 give him a bath. So we did things that like he did it for me when I was a kid and I had the chance to Copy link
20:57 do it for him at the end of his life. But then I came back to the U.S. and we were not expecting Copy link
21:04 my dad to pass that quickly after. So I came back to the U.S. after two or three weeks that I was Copy link
21:09 back my dad passed and I went back and there was again like there was immense grief I remember Copy link
21:16 that first time that I went back to our house like I came back I got back from the airport to our home Copy link
21:24 going first time to a house that my dad is not gonna be there Copy link
21:31 but there was a relief there was like this unknown thing of how much more is he gonna suffer Copy link
21:39 how much longer is this going to be what's gone and there was relief Copy link
21:46 and from there I would say um I started recovering like I was like it was kind of like Copy link
21:57 if I want to draw the level like it was the pain was more and more and more and more and then it's Copy link
22:02 like I started like when my dad passed that was kind of like the start of like me coming back to Copy link
22:11 more of myself or like feeling more hopeful about life and you know it was like the Copy link
22:17 hardest part was that when I would see him sick and like slowly slowly like Copy link
22:25 losing all the abilities it was very hard and then you know what what was interesting was Copy link
22:32 i think when my dad first passed so the more vivid memories were the memories of his Copy link
22:40 illness and then as the time passed the more memories were the memories of Copy link
22:46 what we had like before he was sick like my dreams switched from him being sick in my dreams to him Copy link
22:56 being healthy but again a lot of the dreams i remember still had this quality of like in the Copy link
23:02 dream i'm like is he sick or not is he alive or not like in the dreams what phase are i mean Copy link
23:11 um but also like this shifted me coming again from like a super scientific family no religious Copy link
23:17 no nothing like it's by chance that you're in this world and like you're gonna die and it's done Copy link
23:24 when my dad passed that shifted completely how i felt about death and what happens in death to me Copy link
23:32 dying like death was more now of a it's an attribute so for example i would say you're Copy link
23:39 tall or short you're like i don't know you have blue eyes or like brown eyes and then now you're Copy link
23:44 dead or alive it became like that my dad was there but he was just there as fact of love Copy link
23:51 it was more like he is with me my dad is with me my dad is in my heart like i would see like um Copy link
23:58 in my room throughout the room in my um in sif like there was a tree on the other side that i Copy link
24:05 really like this tree and i would totally see him that he's like you know in his spirit he comes Copy link
24:11 every night says son of tree text me and these so then the fact that he's dead was just like an Copy link
24:16 attribute like yeah now he's dead but it's not that he's gone or he's like you know that that Copy link
24:22 changed for me and then I'm continuing these five ten minutes meditations and then at some point Copy link
24:29 like a year after my dad passed I and tech is also going on at this time thanks to my boss at the Copy link
24:36 time he was so understanding of my situation I'm always grateful for his support in that really Copy link
24:44 hard time of my life in about a year I decided to take three months like leave of absence to go Copy link
24:50 like it kind of like to be back in Iran for my dad's first year anniversary and then also do some Copy link
24:56 travels like in eastern central Europe and Scandinavia I'm doing a little bit meditations Copy link
25:03 and then um when I came back to the U.S. end of that summer I kind of had this urge that hey maybe Copy link
25:11 I want to go and try like a meditation group my only exposure at that point has been headspace and Copy link
25:17 I was not really connected at all to any meditation thing so I searched that one of the first things Copy link
25:23 that popped up was San Francisco Zen Center and I decided to go check out like I saw they have this Copy link
25:29 like program on Saturdays or Sundays they have a Dharma talking about what's a Dharma like all Copy link
25:34 these words were so foreign to me and also too religiousy to me coming especially coming from Copy link
25:42 like this non-religious religion is bad you know for you but i just anyways i had this feeling Copy link
25:48 let me go see what is this dharma tactic talking about so and i went to zen center in ss and there Copy link
25:53 was this beautiful the building is beautiful the room is beautiful the room is packed i kind of go Copy link
25:58 sit somewhere in the middle so it was hard when i got there it was kind of like people it was Copy link
26:02 getting filled up and then there comes a moment that the zen priest starts walking to the room Copy link
26:07 and i see this guy like in a black robe and like a couple people like following him and Copy link
26:14 bringing things and i'm like holy shit this is like a cult like what did you get yourself into Copy link
26:19 and the only reason i didn't leave was because it was hard to leave because like 20 people had to Copy link
26:23 get up for me to leave otherwise i would have left like right at the moment i saw that thing of like Copy link
26:33 and it took him maybe five ten minutes before he actually got to the got to his seat because Copy link
26:38 they're doing all these rituals um lighting this doing that ringing this or to me it felt like at Copy link
26:44 these five ten minutes maybe it was a minute I don't know to me it felt like just go sit on the Copy link
26:48 goddamn chair the moment he sat and he opened his mouth such kindness came out of his voice Copy link
26:57 and his manners that I was kind of like glued back to the chair like that whole like aversion Copy link
27:03 towards like oh my god religion these ceremonies and rituals these like superstitious type things Copy link
27:10 these are all like off of my conditioning suddenly melted in that moment because this guy Copy link
27:17 just sounded like kind and like loving and peaceful and he started talking about many Copy link
27:25 things that I was not getting at all what he's talking about but it was that tone of voice that Copy link
27:29 kept me there he you know zen tradition in my experience is very poetic and literally type thing Copy link
27:40 and I'm not and I didn't grow up with that and I'm my mind is very like logical bullet points like Copy link
27:46 one two three type things so and it was a lot of the content was also buddhist lingo which I was Copy link
27:53 totally not familiar with but again like i'm not getting what this guy is saying and there is a Copy link
27:58 part my analytical part of mine which tries to follow like he said this then that like it's Copy link
28:02 totally failing but this part that was connected to the kindness and his manner and speech was kind Copy link
28:10 of like kept me there and i was like yeah i'm not getting what he's saying but it just feels Copy link
28:15 warm and held and you know then i looked up on their website and it said i have another location Copy link
28:21 Green Gulch in Marin and you can do retreats there and they had a kind of like Christmas Copy link
28:27 New Year retreat end of that year um I signed I wanted to sign up for it um I called the center Copy link
28:35 and one of the questions I asked was like is this hard and then the person would kind of pause and Copy link
28:40 he was like when you read it do you think it's hard I was like I don't know I've never done this Copy link
28:50 and i went to the center and it was lovely the space is just beautiful people are beautiful Copy link
28:58 the sense there is beautiful again like i wasn't getting much of what they're teaching Copy link
29:04 because of then again like too poetic too literally too like abstract for me but again Copy link
29:10 And the felt sense of it was so like, oh. Copy link
29:15 And then I found out that you can actually come and stay with them, Copy link
29:19 love them long term. Copy link
29:20 And this is at the point that, you know, Copy link
29:22 I've been thinking about leaving tech, let's say from a year prior. Copy link
29:26 And I took that three months off the summer of 2016. Copy link
29:32 I mainly came back because I promised my boss that I'm coming back, Copy link
29:35 this boss that has supported me, and I really dearly loved him. Copy link
29:39 I came back from that trip. Copy link
29:41 My boss quit like a month later. Copy link
29:43 And then I was like, I'm leaving. Copy link
29:44 I'm taking, like I'm leaving this job Copy link
29:47 and I'm going to take a year off. Copy link
29:49 And hopefully something magical happens Copy link
29:51 that I don't need to come back to this tech job. Copy link
29:56 And then I was searching for how am I going to spend this year? Copy link
30:00 And when I was at Greenbush, like these apprenticeships, Copy link
30:04 they kind of spoke to me. Copy link
30:05 I was like, this would be interesting that I can't live here. Copy link
30:09 see what this is about so i left my i think somewhere i did that five six day retreat Copy link
30:18 came back made the love january of 2017 it was my last day at that job i remember the day that i Copy link
30:24 decided to quit it was kind of like it's like this imagine like it's a year that i'm doing Copy link
30:29 pros and cons and pros and cons and i'm like should i do what i'm gonna do with money all Copy link
30:33 like I can do pros and cons for you for eternity basically um and then I got so tired of like Copy link
30:41 doing this that one day I woke up I'm like okay today I'm going in I'm just going to the office Copy link
30:47 and I'm saying I'm quitting and that that's what I did because I I just wore myself down so much of Copy link
30:52 trying to analyze this logically that I was like I can't do this anymore I have to make a call on my Copy link
30:58 go for it and as it was interesting this was the first time that I quit my job and I felt so much Copy link
31:06 of a relief because previous times when I've done it I would cry but also there was a big difference Copy link
31:12 a lot of people that I was very close with had already left so I grieved them leaving that job Copy link
31:18 so then at this point I was like okay I'm leaving and I was like okay I was very happy when I made Copy link
31:24 that decision there was not this element of i'm leaving people behind and like i'm gonna miss them Copy link
31:29 and i'm gonna you know they were already gone like the people that i was very close with they Copy link
31:33 already left that job what was alive before you made that decision i keep hearing this from people Copy link
31:40 that you know they want to quit their job do some exploration and they come back or maybe not come Copy link
31:46 back there are things that are present for them uh fear is among them what was alive for you before Copy link
31:55 then and then when you made the decision and what happened after this like emotional train Copy link
32:03 how did that work out for you there were a couple of varieties of fear of different types of texture Copy link
32:10 um one is around money do i have enough money to sustain myself and on paper it looked fine yeah i Copy link
32:16 you have enough bandwidth to do it but then it adds like your mind starts playing these games of Copy link
32:20 oh like what if you take a year off and you come back and then you can't find a job in a year do Copy link
32:24 you have enough money or how much how much how long can you go without working so um it's it's a very Copy link
32:31 emotional space that fear it's not a logical space because maybe the math works you know and you have Copy link
32:37 like i don't know i can't even sustain this longer but like the fear is more like from this place of Copy link
32:43 lack, you know, catastrophe is going to happen and you're not going to be prepared for it. You're Copy link
32:48 going to end up on the street. Another thing that was present was I remember going in and out every Copy link
32:54 day to office and I was like, I just can't do this anymore. Like I can't, like this feeling of like, Copy link
33:02 like, I just can't do this anymore. Like I need a break. Like I need to change. So this push pull Copy link
33:08 between like I really can't just walk into this office again or bring myself to finish the next Copy link
33:14 project or you know the struggle of like day-to-day another element was like remember my when I would Copy link
33:21 talk to my mom she was like what are you doing like she comes from like you know a generation Copy link
33:26 that you know you don't leave a job right like you don't leave a well-paying job why would you risk Copy link
33:31 your life like so it wasn't like that I was in the state of that I would tell my mom or that she was Copy link
33:36 like yeah go on go do it she'd be like what are you doing like why would you ever do that like who Copy link
33:41 knows what happened what feature holds like you can't risk this much this is too much of a risk Copy link
33:47 and then I might even get into conversations with her you know mom like I might get laid off tomorrow Copy link
33:51 who knows like there's no guarantee that this income is like going to be sustained and my mom Copy link
33:55 has uh her input on me weighs a lot like it's not like a you know like what my mom says like lives Copy link
34:02 It's like a lot of my patterns and everything is from my mom. Copy link
34:06 So it lives within me. Copy link
34:08 When she says it, it resonates to some part of me. Copy link
34:11 And that part is like, it's right. Copy link
34:12 Like, what are you doing? Copy link
34:14 But then again, I got tired of like, is Poe's and Conning it? Copy link
34:18 Or should I do this? Copy link
34:19 Should I not do this? Copy link
34:20 And actually, when I remember, I was like, okay, so if I take time off, what am I? Copy link
34:26 Like, one of the biggest part that I want to do was travel. Copy link
34:28 I was like, where would I start traveling? Copy link
34:30 And I started looking at the map and that really excited me. Copy link
34:33 I was like, oh my God, I'm going to go this route and that route. Copy link
34:35 And I made a spreadsheet immediately that this and that. Copy link
34:38 And when I started doing that planning, I was like, okay, I'm going in. Copy link
34:44 I'm doing this. Copy link
34:45 I was like, okay, I just got to like remove this burden of like, should I do it? Copy link
34:50 Should I not? Copy link
34:51 Like every day waking up with, is today the day that I'm going to quit? Copy link
34:54 I'm just going to do it today. Copy link
34:55 So I'm like out of this push and pull. Copy link
34:57 And there was a big relief. Copy link
34:59 Yeah, I want to talk about your plant medicine. Copy link
35:04 It's actually right there. Copy link
35:05 It's like right there. Copy link
35:06 So I quit my job and I'm like, what am I going to do? Copy link
35:09 Part of it was like, I think I'm going to try to see what this Gringolch, living at Gringolch means. Copy link
35:15 And maybe in the last six months of that or something, through my brother, I heard about this plant in the Amazon called Ayahuasca. Copy link
35:25 And I've had experiences with other psychedelics before, never in like a spiritual context, Copy link
35:30 always in party, like with mushrooms or, you know, MDMA, other things in party context. Copy link
35:35 I've never used them. Copy link
35:36 I've never been with it in a spiritual context. Copy link
35:39 But it was kind of like what I heard about ayahuasca was like, oh, this is serious. Copy link
35:44 You're not going to go like to party and like take ayahuasca, you know, this is not that. Copy link
35:50 So I did like a tiny bit of research and I was like, OK, this is. Copy link
35:54 what I heard like what I remember hearing about it was that this is like a very powerful medicine Copy link
36:00 it will bring clarity it's kind of like 10 I don't know they usually say this for this like Copy link
36:05 10 years of therapy in one night like these type of things so then I kind of very quickly decided Copy link
36:11 on like okay I think I'm gonna quit my job I'm gonna do I ask a ceremony so I had this kind of Copy link
36:16 this fantastical view of it that I'm gonna go in I will do it it will heal me and then I will know Copy link
36:21 what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. So then it's this fear of leaving tech is going to Copy link
36:27 leave me because it's kind of tell me one, two, three, four, you do this and this and this, Copy link
36:31 and then you're out of tech. And like, you don't have to worry about like finding a job in a year Copy link
36:35 or, you know, I had this kind of a view of it. I think I called my brother. I was like, hey, Copy link
36:39 do you come with me? I don't want to go there by myself. And he very seriously said, you know, no, Copy link
36:43 no, I don't have any life questions to ask. So I'm not, I'm not coming. I'm like, come on, come. Copy link
36:49 But then I was very set on that I'm going to do this. Copy link
36:51 So I leave my job. Copy link
36:53 And the first trip that I took was to Peru. Copy link
36:56 Basically, I planned like, actually, it was like about a one month trip. Copy link
37:01 First to Colombia and Peru all kind of planned around that ceremony. Copy link
37:07 I asked the ceremony. Copy link
37:08 I didn't do much research, but I just had some of this. Copy link
37:11 Like, I felt like, you know, I've heard that you're going to throw up. Copy link
37:14 So I'm going in thinking that, you know, this is going to be like a physically challenging retreat because you're going to throw up. Copy link
37:22 And then you're going to see things that you don't want to see, but it's good for you. Copy link
37:26 And the retreat was five days, three nights of Ayahuasca, one night, and then some other types of ceremony before and after. Copy link
37:33 And it was like a completely different experience than what I thought it was going to be. Copy link
37:36 It was one of the most beautiful experiences on medicine that I've had. Copy link
37:43 It was so beautiful. Copy link
37:44 Like medicine showed me so many beautiful things, brought so many beautiful feelings, Copy link
37:49 like peace and love, like energy of life to me. Copy link
37:56 That at some point I asked one of the healers that I can't believe that people are scared of this medicine. Copy link
38:03 Like I just can't imagine. Copy link
38:04 Like because all my nights were just like beauty and love. Copy link
38:09 Like, and I was, and, and like, even like the throwing up, I remember like from the moment that I would feel like nauseous till I would bring up. Copy link
38:18 Because I was bracing kind of for like all night nauseous, you know, it was kind of like from the moment that I feel like I'm nauseous till the moment that I would throw up, it's like two minutes. Copy link
38:29 And then as you throw up into this release and it feels amazing, like it's now like, but what's, aside from the beauty of the every night experience of it, what? Copy link
38:39 stood out to me was that with my other experiences with like acid or psilocybin before again like Copy link
38:47 none of this is in spiritual context all of it is in like party settings festivals like this and Copy link
38:51 that so but my experience previously has been like when i when the medicine has worked through me and Copy link
38:57 i'm coming off of the effects i would usually feel like down tired i need to rest with ayahuasca for Copy link
39:04 For me, it was like, I'm coming off of the effects, but I'm feeling this. Copy link
39:08 It's like the level of joy and peace and like this, I want to call it the energy of life, Copy link
39:12 like this aliveness. Copy link
39:14 It was coming in me and it was very surprising to me. Copy link
39:16 I was like, I like, usually I would expect to be like, I don't know, kind of in a fetal position. Copy link
39:21 But this is like, I'm feeling alive. Copy link
39:25 And it kind of like, the healers told me when the ayahuasca retreat began that ayahuasca, Copy link
39:31 he is you at a physical level mental level spiritual level like it works through you and Copy link
39:37 they kept calling it medicine it didn't resonate with me first Copy link
39:42 but then when i went through this experience i was like it is like there's no way i can explain Copy link
39:47 so after your medicine journey yeah like you started your meditation with zen yes you did Copy link
39:54 ayahuasca i did ayahuasca so i come back from peru i do a little bit more traveling in europe and i Copy link
39:59 come back for that summer of 2017 and I went to Green Gulch and that's where like kind of the more Copy link
40:07 serious meditation training started for me so Zen their meditation called Zazen which means just Copy link
40:14 sitting at Zen Center they usually every session is 40 minutes the instructions are very interesting Copy link
40:21 they tell you a lot about how you're holding your body almost no instructions on what's going on Copy link
40:26 inside like with your mind and they're like you just sit just sit and they barely move so imagine Copy link
40:33 for me that at that point maybe maximum I've sat in one place and it's not that I'm not even moving Copy link
40:40 maybe up to 20 minutes suddenly I'm jumping to like 40 minutes and sitting cross-legged holding Copy link
40:46 that posture in a room that you could hear like a pin drop like everybody's like that like it was Copy link
40:53 the first two weeks torture there were two sits in the morning like you wake up at 4 30 something Copy link
41:00 like that there were 40 minutes and then i think a walking meditation or rest another 40 minute Copy link
41:05 session it was brutal it was like from that 20 minutes till 40 minutes every minute was like a Copy link
41:13 year for me like and we sat and there was a there was somebody who's actually would use the you know Copy link
41:18 a bowl like this and would ring it when the meditation session is done and i'm sitting here Copy link
41:23 and he sits down the aisle there so from the corner of my eye if i really stretch my eyes i could see Copy link
41:28 when he's about he moves and he does this i think that whole last 20 minutes of every sit i'm like Copy link
41:34 just like like trying to see you you forgot to ring it you gotta ring it so it's like pain everywhere Copy link
41:42 like pain pain pain pain on the days that I was lucky that there was less pain like just either Copy link
41:48 boredom or agitation in my mind I'm like this gotta end like I can't bear like sitting here Copy link
41:55 one more minute like there was not a lot of like the body was holding but the mind was like Copy link
42:01 like I gotta we gotta do something this is not but then started getting better and by like the first Copy link
42:07 two weeks and another part of it was also I wasn't used to getting about four in the morning so I'm Copy link
42:12 go sit on the meditation cushion pain is coming agitation in the mind at the same time i'm falling Copy link
42:17 asleep and i'm like holy shit i'm gonna topple over and i'm gonna like basically make a chaos Copy link
42:22 in this room of like everybody likes that so that fear of like falling asleep or like hitting my Copy link
42:30 head whatever all of this but slowly got better and i got better like it was like an intense Copy link
42:37 training for me but it was good and i like towards the end i was like oh no like i could sit with Copy link
42:41 pain the pain was even felt less the mind was more settled however again like again zen being zen and Copy link
42:48 poetic um if you ask me then why we're doing this or why we're chanting this or what does it chant Copy link
42:54 mean zen has chanting there are all these ceremonies and there were bits and pieces that Copy link
42:58 were i was getting like for example why there are all these like bringing this bell and that bell and Copy link
43:04 why do we bow to like every time you want to sit at the table or whatever you bow i was learning Copy link
43:10 why you would do this a lot of it was about like coming back to the present moment you remember Copy link
43:14 that now you're like and then it's also like kind of erodes of the ego if you're kind of bowing to Copy link
43:19 a chair that you're sitting on and you know uh and partly i also took it as a challenge let me see if Copy link
43:24 i can sit for 40 minutes although like i don't know if it's doing me what else it's doing but Copy link
43:28 it was kind of like i'm gonna like learn how to sit for 40 minutes not moving type of thing then Copy link
43:36 I left there I traveled a little bit more the first time I went to Zen Center the first retreat Copy link
43:42 that I went I met a dear person he was part of the same retreat I remember distinctly he said Copy link
43:49 that you know I usually this time of the year I go to a different retreat for meditation but this Copy link
43:54 time it was booked out so I'm here and if you really want to try something intense try this Copy link
44:01 by SN Gwanka and I wrote this down in my phone fast forward a year from then I was in India and Copy link
44:08 then something in the back of my mind so I like this was a you know I have this notes on my phone Copy link
44:13 recommendations of I could be movie whatever books movies anything that people recommend places to go Copy link
44:17 and this was kind of I always kept it at the top of that list like even when I added new things I Copy link
44:23 would add it after this thing because for some reason something like spoke to me about that name Copy link
44:29 and I was in India and I looked it up and I was like oh there's so many centers everywhere and Copy link
44:33 then I booked a retreat at the end of my India trip this is January of 2018 so we're gonna go in Copy link
44:40 I was mind blown I was that first retreat like I was mind blown by this knowledge and this technique Copy link
44:51 and I kind of felt like how did I not know about this all these years this is like Copy link
44:55 everybody should know this everybody since they're five need to know this is how the mind works this Copy link
45:00 is why we suffer this is like and i got it because the teacher um gong kaji he is very good at Copy link
45:06 explaining things in simple terms and kind of like bullet pointy this is the problem this is Copy link
45:12 solution one two three five six seven and that really spoke to me like i understood it what he's Copy link
45:18 saying and why we're doing this and i came out of that retreat i felt like amazing like just lights Copy link
45:26 just like and i felt like i was kind of like a prophet everybody i was calling you gotta do this Copy link
45:32 this is the best thing you can i think i just people were so sick every talk show like ripasana Copy link
45:40 i came back to the u.s i did another retreat six months the second retreat i did it like at Copy link
45:45 um north fork um the i think it's the biggest center in california and i think the second Copy link
45:52 retreat that i did was like a bilingual farce english at north fork and i hearing the teachings Copy link
45:58 in farce it has another level of like impact yeah i'm curious actually about that a lot of Copy link
46:05 the spiritual practices and teaching that i have received has been in english and receiving it is Copy link
46:11 farsi correlates with the theocracy that we experienced back in iran and i feel resistant Copy link
46:19 in me to it so i'm very curious how is it for you experiencing it in farsi and english Copy link
46:26 does it sit in the same level of english because i heard it so one thing that was hard at the Copy link
46:32 beginning to hearing it in farsi because all i knew before about like buddhist practices i've Copy link
46:39 learned it in English before so some of the translations in Farsi at first I was like oh Copy link
46:45 what is is this this or is this that so there were some like and I because I didn't have that Copy link
46:51 you know background that's saying Sufism or like the Farsi spiritual path a lot of the words in Copy link
46:59 Farsi were foreign to me like when um even like the simple words of moral debe like it it wasn't Copy link
47:06 something that I would use in daily life it was like it would sound foreign to me but it has like Copy link
47:13 a warm effect when you're listening to the instructions because it's in my language Copy link
47:20 a warm effect and the teacher at the AT at the assistant teacher at the course Copy link
47:26 she was Iranian so you can go ask questions in Farsi that that brings warmth that brings for me Copy link
47:33 It brought feelings of warmth and home and like, you know, that kind of thing. Copy link
47:36 The last Bipassana course that I did last November was also in Farsi. Copy link
47:40 And I remember at lunch times, they usually set out like a buffet. Copy link
47:45 You kind of stand in light. Copy link
47:46 And then they had these like, I don't know. Copy link
47:49 I don't remember what they meant. Copy link
47:50 Maybe Adaspolo, let's say. Copy link
47:51 Every day there was, every day or every other day, there was at least one Iranian dish. Copy link
47:57 And they would write it with Farsi. Copy link
47:59 It was an Adaspolo. Copy link
48:02 And they would say Nushejan, which means, how do we say Nushejan? Copy link
48:06 Good appetite. Copy link
48:06 Kind of like that. Copy link
48:07 Bon appétit. Copy link
48:08 Bon appétit, yeah. Copy link
48:10 And there would be heart there. Copy link
48:11 And every time I would see this Farsi thing with Nushejan, it's like my heart would melt. Copy link
48:17 Like that love that would, like I feel like, it would just like, oh, like, you know. Copy link
48:24 And then Vipassana became very dominant in my life. Copy link
48:28 except maybe COVID happened so like the centers were closed but I both sat at the courses and Copy link
48:35 served at the courses and serving was beautiful to heart but beautiful somewhere there like Copy link
48:42 beginning of 2019 uh is when like I think I came back to SF after like travels all that stuff Copy link
48:50 sometime in the fall of 2018 at that point I was like I think I I don't know like you know IOSCA Copy link
48:55 didn't tell me all the next steps of one two three what to do and i don't know what to do so i think Copy link
48:59 i'm gonna go back to tech so i decided i'm going back to tech job and what year is this i think i Copy link
49:06 came back october november of 2018 to sf and then i made the decision that i'm going back to tech Copy link
49:11 again like this dread of interviews uh i started starting for these interviews and i'm really Copy link
49:18 thankful that the first place I interviewed, they offered me a job and I took it. I interviewed with Copy link
49:25 multiple companies. I was kind of set up in a way that I was interviewing multiple companies within Copy link
49:30 the span of two weeks. In that two weeks, I think I lost like 15 pounds. I cried every day. I woke Copy link
49:35 up every day with anxiety. It was really debilitating. And I'm really thankful for that job Copy link
49:42 that the first company that I interviewed, they gave me an offer and I was like, I'm taking it. Copy link
49:47 I can't do this interview thing longer. Copy link
49:51 But I remember this moment also, like when I first started that job, Copy link
49:55 maybe going through this, again, traumatic experience of interviewing. Copy link
49:58 And I had this thing of like, this is my last tech job. Copy link
50:02 I had this like kind of knowing of, I think this is the last tech job. Copy link
50:05 And then a little bit on the plant medicine side, I did the ayahuasca ceremonies. Copy link
50:12 When the ceremonies were through, although again, like I felt things that I was like, Copy link
50:17 wow, magic, like this medicine really, Copy link
50:20 there's magic to the body, to the mind. Copy link
50:22 But I felt like there's not something Copy link
50:23 that I felt the urge that I want to do it again. Copy link
50:26 I didn't have that feeling. Copy link
50:28 But I kind of had this feeling of like, Copy link
50:31 oh, I want to experiment more with psychedelic. Copy link
50:34 Again, like I was moving from like kind of party mode things Copy link
50:39 to no, these plants are like, Copy link
50:43 it needs reverence kind of like, you know, Copy link
50:46 It's not like, oh, let me just pop some, you know. Copy link
50:48 I was going more towards that after the Ayahuasca ceremonies that I sat. Copy link
50:52 And then COVID hit towards, I think this is now like end of 2021. Copy link
50:59 One of my cousins called me. Copy link
51:01 She was like, I'm looking for like Ayahuasca circle. Copy link
51:02 Do you know anything in California? Copy link
51:06 But my cousin was like, okay, I'm going to come. Copy link
51:09 And then she was like, do you want to come? Copy link
51:11 And I was like, yeah, maybe, why not? Copy link
51:14 It was kind of this very like, yeah, sure, we can like, let's do it together. Copy link
51:18 And this is like Christmas New Year, New Year of 2022. Copy link
51:22 So me, my brother for the first time, my brother's partner, my cousin and my cousin's husband. Copy link
51:28 We kind of went as a family. Copy link
51:30 This was a different tradition, a different lineage for IOSCA from Brazil. Copy link
51:36 So it was very different. Copy link
51:38 Like my experience in Peru was more Shipibo lineage. Copy link
51:41 It's dark. Copy link
51:42 The room is dark and in the Brazilian one. Copy link
51:47 So it was a little bit at the beginning. Copy link
51:49 It was a little bit like challenging for me because the light is on. Copy link
51:52 There are live musicians. Copy link
51:54 There's so much activity. Copy link
51:55 It's not that you're like under a blanket by yourself. Copy link
51:59 You're kind of asked to participate in a room by singing the music. Copy link
52:02 And I started sitting in circles like every four to six months. Copy link
52:06 So my connection to medicine grew and grew and grew. Copy link
52:11 And this was a time that I was also working. Copy link
52:14 One of the main things that was working was my attachment wounds, Copy link
52:18 like my bonding with my mom and how that carried through the rest of my life. Copy link
52:25 And it was helping me. Copy link
52:26 It was helping me seeing the patterns. Copy link
52:29 This in conjunction with I started talk therapy, Copy link
52:32 like maybe around the same time as when I, again, went back to the Ayahuasca circle. Copy link
52:38 things like I it was kind of I was understanding what they mean by unconscious patterns because Copy link
52:45 when they became conscious I was like I was doing this all my life but I never realized that I'm Copy link
52:49 doing so it kind of clicked it was clicking for me when they're talking about unconscious patterns Copy link
52:53 and how they kind of dictate your decisions I was learning more and more about that alongside with Copy link
53:01 meditation so it was kind of like I felt like all these different healing aspects were kind of Copy link
53:06 We've been together, you know, plant medicine work, meditation work, Copy link
53:10 and this helps the other, talk therapy, all of them. Copy link
53:14 Combined, it was becoming this, it was kind of like me finding things Copy link
53:18 that is helping me navigate, like, my healing and also knowing myself easier. Copy link
53:25 Yeah, and so you were doing all these modalities, right? Copy link
53:29 Plant medicine, meditation, talk therapy. Copy link
53:33 And I want to come back to, I think, 2023. Copy link
53:38 There was a time that you quit your job for good. Copy link
53:41 Yeah. Copy link
53:43 Yeah. Copy link
53:44 Let's talk about that. Copy link
53:45 How about that experience? Copy link
53:46 How did you come to that conclusion? Copy link
53:51 So I didn't quit my job. Copy link
53:53 I got laid off. Copy link
53:54 And I made a decision that I'm not going back to tech. Copy link
53:57 It was kind of, first of all, it was heartbreaking for me that I got laid off. Copy link
54:00 Because this was a company that I put a lot of effort in. Copy link
54:03 I felt very close to the people. Copy link
54:07 They were my friends. Copy link
54:08 And it was, to some extent, I felt betrayed. Copy link
54:12 But to some extent, I would also say, this is like how capitalism works. Copy link
54:16 When things get tough, decisions are made off of money. Copy link
54:19 And then given that it was like kind of years of me like becoming more disenchanted with tech and knowing that this is, I don't know if I can do this. Copy link
54:28 So this was kind of like this company that I, for the most part, really liked working at. Copy link
54:35 But this very harsh ending, it was kind of the last nail in the coffin. Copy link
54:40 To me, it was like tech is not for me. Copy link
54:43 Like this culture of like a little bit dehumanized, too competitive, cutthroat is, I just, I can't do it anymore. Copy link
54:53 so I made the decision that I'm not going back to tech and then there was all this phase of terror Copy link
55:02 of this is the only thing I know how to do I don't want to do it I can't do anything else like it was Copy link
55:09 this feeling that I felt like I'm in a dark corner that if I want to get out of it I have to go back Copy link
55:14 to tech like or I would stay in this dark corner I would never know what I want to do but again like Copy link
55:21 the options are like very bleak like there is um like stuck kind of a feeling um I remember a lot Copy link
55:30 of anxiety like I waking up in the mornings with anxiety of like not knowing what I think helped me Copy link
55:37 through going that first six months to a year definitely the meditation practice definitely Copy link
55:42 the plant medicine work would help me kind of like I remember some medicine nights that Copy link
55:47 i'm like it just worked like it's just the whole night is anxiety it's like anxiety just pouring Copy link
55:52 out years of accumulated anxiety in my body like just so tired of like i'm like vibration of anxiety Copy link
56:01 in my body but i'm like when is why am i like what is it gonna be done like when am i gonna be Copy link
56:06 through when am i gonna feel like less of this intensity and like i traveled a little bit more Copy link
56:12 And then slowly by slowly, and oh, I say also this, again, coming from that, like, fear of what am I going to do? Copy link
56:22 I got to find something quickly because who knows, like, I don't know how far is my money going to last. Copy link
56:32 And second is like, what if people ask me, what do you do in San Francisco? Copy link
56:35 And I say, like, nothing. Copy link
56:37 Like, who am I if I'm not, like, a tech engineer? Copy link
56:39 I'm not a this or that. Copy link
56:41 Like that identity crisis of like kind of losing your worth or status in society as like somebody who doesn't work. Copy link
56:48 Especially someplace in San Francisco that work is so central and so like it defines characters, right? Copy link
56:56 Like who you are, you're placed in the society. Copy link
56:58 Or at least these are my internal understandings that like that's how it felt for me. Copy link
57:03 Like you were placed, you know, you see homeless people. Copy link
57:07 That's the worst thing possible that can happen, right? Copy link
57:09 and then being out of a judgment, you know, all those, like, negative judgments, Copy link
57:14 which they lived in me, right? Copy link
57:15 Like, I gave them energy, too. Copy link
57:18 I remember, like, me and a dear friend, we have this, we would go to the Russian bathbanya. Copy link
57:27 He is also a Vipassana practitioner, same lineage, same school as me. Copy link
57:33 And then we would basically start doing Vipassana at the bathhouse. Copy link
57:39 And one day he turned to me and he's like, hey, you know, what do you think about like we starting on our own space and offer classes? Copy link
57:47 And I was like, well, that sounds amazing. Copy link
57:48 But it also helped like damper that fear of what am I doing with my life? Copy link
57:53 I don't know what to do with my life. Copy link
57:55 So he kind of like poured some water over that fear. Copy link
57:57 And we worked on it for some time. Copy link
57:58 I think we worked on the project seriously for a couple of months intensely. Copy link
58:04 And then both of us decided to go to a 10-day repastment retreat. Copy link
58:09 I was seeing that I'm again like going back to my tech patterns of you know working long hours Copy link
58:14 pushing myself to do things that I don't want to do but I feel like I gotta do because this is how Copy link
58:19 the system works and like um but again like I was very much back into the patterns of like things Copy link
58:25 that worked for me before hard work stick at a project you set a goal you finish it you don't Copy link
58:29 give up like those patterns also like we eliminate one identity which is a tech worker let's invent Copy link
58:37 another one yeah stick to it that's what our ego does yeah yeah yeah because it's known right like Copy link
58:42 it's you're out of that i don't know mode so it's like more like ego once i want a certainty i'm Copy link
58:49 just gonna follow this path and i don't need to be in this mode of exploration oh my god god forbid Copy link
58:54 i explore you know we went to vipassana together and suddenly it was super clear to me that i began Copy link
59:01 repeating the same patterns and I came back and I talked to my friend and I was like I don't want Copy link
59:07 to do this I don't want to start a business there are portions of this that speaks to me Copy link
59:12 like for example the idea of offering a class but going full on raise money kind of like no but what Copy link
59:18 was behind it for me after that Bipassana retreat was like when I realized I'm doing this again and Copy link
59:23 again I'm like my mind to kind of eliminate unknown is trying to force me on a path that is Copy link
59:30 struggling for me. I kind of made this commitment of try to stay with what my heart and gut says. Copy link
59:40 Maybe have the mind a little bit there for like 10% practical aspects of things, Copy link
59:45 but to try to reorient my decision making more to my heart. And as soon as I catch that I'm doing Copy link
59:52 fear-based decisions, stop myself, reorient, connect to the heart, connect to the gut. Copy link
59:57 And it doesn't matter what would be the external outcome of this. Copy link
1:00:02 What I want to commit to is coming back to the heart, coming back to the gut. Copy link
1:00:07 And I felt like as long as I stayed true to this internal state of it, Copy link
1:00:13 then outside could be anything. Copy link
1:00:14 It would be hard to line. Copy link
1:00:15 Like I don't need to, like things will come, you know. Copy link
1:00:20 So then the decision to, eh, let's offer classes, that felt hard to line. Copy link
1:00:23 Like, yeah, I want to try this. Copy link
1:00:25 That's the part of this project that speaks to me. Copy link
1:00:29 Yeah, yeah. Copy link
1:00:29 There's like a thumbs up from the heart, from the gut. Copy link
1:00:32 Let's do it. Copy link
1:00:33 Kind of a thing. Copy link
1:00:34 And then we did that. Copy link
1:00:35 I really enjoyed it. Copy link
1:00:36 And then it's like I started learning, hey, I like actually teaching this feeling of being in a class, being in a community, like connecting with. Copy link
1:00:45 I'm slowly allowing myself to experiment with things to see what feels right and what's not, Copy link
1:00:52 you know, kind of room for exploration. Copy link
1:00:55 And then I, the next day, we were doing the classes for some time, maybe five months, six months. Copy link
1:01:02 And then I threw another dear friend, one of my first friends that I made in San Francisco. Copy link
1:01:08 I found out about a retreat, like an ayahuasca retreat, like a two-week retreat in the Amazon. Copy link
1:01:13 And as soon as he went to that retreat and we met up, he was explaining to me as he's just talking, I'm like, I'm going. Copy link
1:01:23 I'm like, I just remember that feeling of like, my heart is like, you're going, you're doing this. Copy link
1:01:29 Like that, like the pool was so strong. Copy link
1:01:31 And I was really lucky that I got to go on this retreat. Copy link
1:01:33 This is, I think, March of, yeah, it's March of 2025. Copy link
1:01:38 So I went to the Amazon and it was, this is like the ship people lineage. Copy link
1:01:44 and just being immersed in that culture their way of being their way of living even if i didn't do Copy link
1:01:51 any medicine even it was healing like the way they thought so Copy link
1:01:59 some of the things that really stood out to me like there were there were sessions that we could Copy link
1:02:03 ask the healers questions and they would call us usually people from the north and our questions Copy link
1:02:08 we're so elaborate let's say we wanted some somebody in our group a mother wanted to ask Copy link
1:02:14 questions to the master the woman healer the how do you raise children what is it and then Copy link
1:02:21 the question is like two minute long three minute long because we were trying to allow it and then Copy link
1:02:26 the healer looked and said yeah you raise children holding love in your heart and that was it and I Copy link
1:02:31 was like my jaw dropped like it was like this super simple answer super simple way of being Copy link
1:02:41 but when she said love she knew what it means to hold love in your heart i might say the word love Copy link
1:02:48 but i might really not know what love experientially feels like you know yeah yeah um but yeah i felt Copy link
1:03:00 from him like love and kindness that I like I experienced love and kindness in a different Copy link
1:03:08 level with this person when I came back uh one thing that opened was uh which I'm really grateful Copy link
1:03:16 for the circles that I was sitting I also circles that I was sitting here um there were some shifts Copy link
1:03:22 in the circles um and then they came to me and they were like hey what do you think do you want Copy link
1:03:27 to come and help at the circles and at first i was like yeah i will try it but i had reservations Copy link
1:03:33 because i felt like am i like equipped enough am i like do i have enough like do i know how to do Copy link
1:03:39 it this is like this is like a serious matter this is like people are in the most vulnerable state Copy link
1:03:44 but i was like yeah i want to try it and see how it feels the first weekend that i went for help it Copy link
1:03:50 was like a very small ceremony like i think day one was one person day two maybe two three persons Copy link
1:03:55 like it was very small but I remember this distinct moment of somebody wanted to go to the bathroom I Copy link
1:04:03 went to help them to go to the bathroom we get to the bathroom and they suddenly there was this Copy link
1:04:08 flood of emotions they would start crying and we just kind of like sat on the floor in the bathroom Copy link
1:04:13 and they cried in my lap and I had such clarity in my heart that this is like it felt so right Copy link
1:04:22 Like I felt like I haven't felt this clear that, hey, I really want to be in this kind of relationship with other humans that we're both sitting on the bathroom floor like crying, but we're as connected as it could be. Copy link
1:04:39 but I had such a clear like I remember like the what I felt in my heart like this openness of like Copy link
1:04:45 and there's no more pros and cons do I like this or do I is this something I like or not it's like Copy link
1:04:50 you know it it's like clear as this light you know so yeah then that I was so lucky that then this Copy link
1:04:56 like helping at ceremonies came to my life I'm moving more towards yeah the psychology supporting Copy link
1:05:03 people and through that like what I learned in that for when I went to that first helping at a Copy link
1:05:07 ayurasa ceremony i've helped that let's say uh vipassana retreat so i was kind of going with Copy link
1:05:13 this mentality i'm going to be serving what was so different for me is like i felt i'm receiving so Copy link
1:05:19 much healing so much and i felt like i can't even say that i'm a helper here like it felt like the Copy link
1:05:24 other like it felt so maybe maybe it's circular right but i'm like i'm i'm helping and it's coming Copy link
1:05:30 back and it's kind of and i was like whoa like i did not expect that element of like i'm healings Copy link
1:05:38 i'm receiving so much that i can't even stay that i feel like i'm helping you know and i'm really Copy link
1:05:43 hoping to be able to get training from indigenous people like i'm really hoping to go back to amazon Copy link
1:05:48 and like can teach me and i sit with them for like years to come you know let's go back to iran Copy link
1:05:55 we started this journey Copy link
1:05:58 with your first trip to Iran Copy link
1:06:00 right and the night Copy link
1:06:02 that Israel attacked Iran Copy link
1:06:03 and what you Copy link
1:06:06 were experiencing, all the destruction Copy link
1:06:09 what happened Copy link
1:06:10 next, this war lasted Copy link
1:06:12 12 days, you were in Iran Copy link
1:06:14 and you Copy link
1:06:15 were in Iran for a while after Copy link
1:06:18 that as well, so you experienced Copy link
1:06:20 how was it before Copy link
1:06:21 during and after the war Copy link
1:06:24 yeah how do you summarize that experience like being in iran yeah before the war started there Copy link
1:06:31 was this feeling that there might be attacks but for me specifically i was shocked that tehran was Copy link
1:06:36 attacked or the big cities were attacked and i think um that showed because in the neighborhoods Copy link
1:06:44 that i was in tehran i i decided like me and my mom and the family decided to stay in tehran Copy link
1:06:50 and not leave they were empty like even when i was a child because i grew up in this neighborhood i Copy link
1:06:55 haven't seen these neighborhoods this empty like it was a ghost town after some days that finally Copy link
1:07:00 my mind was like oh this is not just like sporadic attacks here this is like a full-on war the next Copy link
1:07:07 phase was uh is this gonna be like two weeks or is this gonna be two years that feeling of not Copy link
1:07:15 knowing of how long this will take and then that passed i think my in general like my meditation Copy link
1:07:22 staying meditating every day would bring me back to you know base because there was so much news Copy link
1:07:29 there was so much happening that i would get like kind of de-grounded like i would float up and then Copy link
1:07:34 it's like oh meditation time let's get back let's get back and um also in this the second one uh Copy link
1:07:41 loving kindness meditation like i would do like vipassana and then i will get into the loving Copy link
1:07:46 kindness and that actually i think it was more powerful to me um to connect to kind of like Copy link
1:07:51 to drop from all this chaos that is happening at the top connect one layer lower connect to the Copy link
1:07:57 humanity connect to the human connection and love it would uh kind of bring that feeling of peace Copy link
1:08:05 like yes there is chaos but there is like there is connection then i think partly was uh after i was Copy link
1:08:13 past that phase of hauling is this kind of last maybe that lasted about a day or two of and then Copy link
1:08:18 i kind of let go of that we don't know we go on and then there were some feelings of oh maybe big Copy link
1:08:24 change and change for good might be coming and then there was ceasefire and it felt very abrupt Copy link
1:08:30 I woke up and I was like wow what like what's going on like it felt very abrupt it felt like Copy link
1:08:37 one of one of the friends had a good metaphor for it it was like you know it kind of felt like Copy link
1:08:43 you know the day that was the election in 88 and we thought Mousavi is going to be elected but then Copy link
1:08:51 it felt like that like it felt like I woke up to that day again Copy link
1:08:57 so roller coaster i'm like oh things are gonna get better things are not gonna get better like Copy link
1:09:01 what's gonna happen and then suddenly like poof dropped like kind of really know what to make Copy link
1:09:08 sense of it um another dear friend like planned like um camping trip and i went camping and that Copy link
1:09:15 helped a lot i went to alamut um beautiful like just being back in nature and i realized how much Copy link
1:09:22 tension I was holding in my body of just being that yeah I think I waited till like the airports Copy link
1:09:27 open it was hard for me to come back it wasn't an easy decision for me to come back it was kind of Copy link
1:09:31 like my heart was there so um and the airports were not open in Tehran for some time and then Copy link
1:09:38 they opened up and then the airlines would come and then they would stop coming so there was a Copy link
1:09:43 part of me that was um like I had some commitments here to come help at the circle there were some Copy link
1:09:48 commitments here but there was also a part of me that was like well if the airline doesn't come Copy link
1:09:52 then it's not on me right like and I would happily stay but eventually the flights resumed then I Copy link
1:09:58 came back kind of mid-July so I was there from like last week was April till mid-July and then Copy link
1:10:05 fast forward to January happened the massacres happened I purposefully limited a lot of like Copy link
1:10:13 news for myself I was I came totally off of social media because I had the experience of Copy link
1:10:18 and it was debilitating for me i was hooked to my computer helpless uh very difficult state for me Copy link
1:10:25 and then this time having had that experience i consciously was like i'm gonna limit what is Copy link
1:10:32 coming through because it wouldn't serve me i know that it would just destabilize me i would know like Copy link
1:10:39 on the rough what is going on and already i was like my heart was in so much pain of what is going Copy link
1:10:46 on but I was trying to kind of limit my exposure and then I knew that I'm going back to Iran because Copy link
1:10:53 I wanted to be in Iran for Noruz mainly because one of my aunts who basically were neighbors like Copy link
1:11:01 growing up they were first floor and we were second floor she's sick and I don't know how much Copy link
1:11:06 more time I have with her and I kind of wanted to be there Noruz time because Noruz was always a Copy link
1:11:13 special time that like I don't know we would go downstairs they would take out we would take their Copy link
1:11:18 pictures they would come up so you know it was this whole like our family's exchange so I wanted Copy link
1:11:23 to be there specifically for NoRuz and there were all these talks of more attacks so what was present Copy link
1:11:29 for me then I was like I I just want to get a ticket and get in what I don't want to happen is Copy link
1:11:35 like I get to Turkey or someplace and then I get there and they say like airspace is closed so my Copy link
1:11:40 whole thing was like i hope that i just make it through and that happened i got to on um like the Copy link
1:11:47 monday before the saturday the war started and this is i think april no this is uh so the war Copy link
1:11:54 started february 28th so this is like february 21st or 2nd some somewhere there like it was a Copy link
1:12:01 saturday like five days before like the monday before i got to tehran and then this time you Copy link
1:12:07 know it was a bit different the feeling of war because first of all i've seen what has happened Copy link
1:12:12 in the 12-day war so it's already like that shock effect like i've seen what could happen Copy link
1:12:18 your mind is already like picking up on so many patterns i can tell you this is a drone that's Copy link
1:12:22 like an anti-aircraft like it is far this is too close like it's already like trained a little bit Copy link
1:12:28 and like to kind of orient and find safety the first attack that happened i remember so this was Copy link
1:12:34 in the morning so I was up and I didn't even know that it like the the way I found out is like I was Copy link
1:12:40 doing I because of my ankle injury I do some um workouts in the morning um and then I'm working Copy link
1:12:47 out and then I pick up my phone and I see that my brother from the U.S. has messaged me that Copy link
1:12:53 are there attacks in Tehran and it was already one hour past uh like I think the first attack Copy link
1:12:58 I remember it at 9.30 and this is 10.30. Copy link
1:13:01 And as I came to respond, the internet was shut. Copy link
1:13:04 So that was the last message that came through. Copy link
1:13:06 And then I didn't have internet for over two months. Copy link
1:13:09 Only basically the, you know, I had access to the internal sites, Iranian, whatever is Copy link
1:13:14 posted within Iran, nothing outside. Copy link
1:13:15 The connection to outside or the news was through satellite, like Iranian news media. Copy link
1:13:20 And we could call my brother, like one-way calls to the US would work. Copy link
1:13:25 But during that two months, basically, I didn't have any connection to friends who don't live in Iran. Copy link
1:13:31 Friends and family who was outside, except my brother. Copy link
1:13:33 And to my brother, you know, messaging. Copy link
1:13:35 And like maybe if my brother is at a friend's house here, I would talk to them on the phone. Copy link
1:13:40 But the rest, like we were kind of in this like bubble of family and friends, like that circle of people within Iran. Copy link
1:13:47 I mainly moved like the first weeks of the war. Copy link
1:13:50 I mainly moved. Copy link
1:13:52 So I would go from upstairs, my mom's house downstairs to my aunt's house to another aunt's house like a block away, maybe to the beginning of the street to buy groceries. Copy link
1:14:01 Very limited. Copy link
1:14:01 I think the times that I drove in Tehran was less than five times in that peak of the war. Copy link
1:14:08 One of the biggest things that I saw is like this time Tehran didn't become deserted like the way that it became deserted in the first, in the 12-day war. Copy link
1:14:19 Slowly, I think gradually more people left and they would go and come back and whatever. Copy link
1:14:24 But it never got to a point that I remember distinctly in the 12-day war that I came out of our home. Copy link
1:14:30 And the street is empty. Copy link
1:14:31 No cars, no nothing. Copy link
1:14:33 And it never got to that point. Copy link
1:14:36 One of the moments that I remember, I think it was the first week of the war. Copy link
1:14:40 First or second week. Copy link
1:14:41 It was early in the war. Copy link
1:14:42 They hit a building at the beginning of our block, like five minutes walking away from us. Copy link
1:14:48 it was a 12-story building and all of it collapsed it's funny that i didn't wake up today it was Copy link
1:14:53 around like 1 30 in the morning i didn't wake up to that i don't know how but my mom basically ran Copy link
1:14:58 into my room and she's like wake up like it's like and then i woke up and i was like what happened Copy link
1:15:02 she's like it was so loud i like something bad and then i was like well it has passed and i went Copy link
1:15:06 back to sleep the next morning through the news my mom was drinking oh they're saying they've hit Copy link
1:15:11 this and this in on this street which is not our street it's like one street over but the address Copy link
1:15:17 was wrong I was like no this is like the one at the beginning of like and I ran and it was kind of Copy link
1:15:22 it's like less than five minutes to get there and I remember as I'm walking I'm seeing in this alley Copy link
1:15:27 that I've grown up in you know big pieces of rocks and like you know the explosion debris and stuff Copy link
1:15:35 and I was like kind of like whoa like I never like again like this feeling of it's unbelievable Copy link
1:15:42 to me that I'm seeing these scenes in the street that I grew up on and I get to the corner the Copy link
1:15:48 whole building has collapsed the whole main road is blocked the debris from this building has crossed Copy link
1:15:53 this main road and hit the buildings on the other side and they're like kind of like split in half Copy link
1:15:59 so it seems that for example yeah I've seen in Gaza it looks like that like it was there and then Copy link
1:16:04 again like your mind goes into like what if this happens like what if I'm so I'm looking around to Copy link
1:16:10 see what has happened to the surrounding buildings and i see none of them uh none of the buildings Copy link
1:16:15 have collapsed but the the ones who were right next like basically their walls were right next Copy link
1:16:22 to the attack site they're all like exploded the walls are exploded so if you were in that room Copy link
1:16:29 right next to this building you something serious could happen to you seeing that scene that day Copy link
1:16:36 that night I'm like in my bed and I'm like well if they hit this I'm exactly that room right next Copy link
1:16:43 to that room I'd be that hole in the wall like and this is going through me and then there's a Copy link
1:16:48 part of me that's like do I get out of the room or do I stay eventually I slept in the room that Copy link
1:16:54 night the next morning I talked to my mom and then she was like well just come sleep in the rooms that Copy link
1:16:58 are in the middle of the house but then there was a part of me that felt like no I'm I feel like I Copy link
1:17:02 don't want to give in to this fear like it's if if it's meant to happen it will happen and i'm not Copy link
1:17:08 going to live with this fear so i went and slept back in that same room but the fear didn't come Copy link
1:17:13 out or the anxiety didn't come back i think just also verbalizing it helped that hey i thought about Copy link
1:17:18 like this might happen but at some maybe after the first week of war i realized that i'm kind of Copy link
1:17:25 hooked to TV and I'm in this 24-7 cycles of news and it wasn't doing me good so I purposely like I Copy link
1:17:33 think I stopped watching any TV for maybe two days three days I started like meditating considering Copy link
1:17:39 more maybe sitting three hours like in one chunk or kind of like to bring back that you know a Copy link
1:17:45 little bit calm and then after that reset kind of I limited like how much like I would watch maybe the Copy link
1:17:51 news in the morning and one time in the afternoon but I tried not to get into that mode of Copy link
1:17:56 constant news so then and there was no internet so there was a lot of like now I have a lot of time Copy link
1:18:02 I meditated so much more and the meditations were I think it was so much out of I feel like Copy link
1:18:07 necessity but they became so sharp and so concentrated I would I would feel like I'm Copy link
1:18:13 back at a center like on day six of a whatever repostment retreat like it became so deep I Copy link
1:18:18 started playing the piano again because now I had time like you know my childhood I never wanted to Copy link
1:18:22 practice but now it's like ah this is so loving because it just takes you with it you become so Copy link
1:18:27 much in the moment that kind of everything fades and it brings again calm I spent a lot of time Copy link
1:18:32 with family um with my aunt it was lovely I'm so grateful for that opportunity most challenging Copy link
1:18:40 thing to me was some of these disconnects that happen within the family and friends because of Copy link
1:18:45 different views on everybody had their own view what's best for the company despite none of us Copy link
1:18:50 having any control in what's happening like neither side had any I think influence or input on what's Copy link
1:18:55 going on it was totally out of our control but we had like strong opinions about like how Copy link
1:19:02 what we think is best and then sometimes that would land us in these like heated arguments Copy link
1:19:07 and those were the nights that I would stay up at night not because of the bombs like those were Copy link
1:19:12 the disconnect was the hardest thing for me when I feel like this far from like some of the closest Copy link
1:19:17 people to me and then for me what would bring me back to connection was those love and kindness Copy link
1:19:22 methamphetamines like as soon as I was able to drop to besides these opinions and beliefs and Copy link
1:19:29 beneath it there is that love and connection and friendship and connection to human level Copy link
1:19:34 and as soon as I could feel it even to the people that I felt the most distant from like Copy link
1:19:41 you know people that I would like on on I might see as oh they're my enemy they're after they would Copy link
1:19:46 if it comes the thing that would kill me but as soon as i would feel that for them Copy link
1:19:50 it's like i'm back in this peace i'm back in this connection i'm back i'm connected to this life Copy link
1:19:55 versus like up here trying to argue right or wrong or you know yeah i can i can only imagine i wasn't Copy link
1:20:02 in iran during both of these wars uh and my observation is that you're almost a decade of Copy link
1:20:11 ritual practice right meditation medicine war talk therapy equip you to to handle these levels of Copy link
1:20:19 stress i would say this still like though in the moment there were definitely like moments that i Copy link
1:20:26 didn't i wasn't centered enough so i would like there were moments that i could catch myself Copy link
1:20:30 before entering like conversations discussions that i know but then there were also a lot of Copy link
1:20:35 other moments that i didn't have that like presence and awareness to kind of not get in there so Copy link
1:20:41 would get in it and then I'm in this loop of like suffering of like I should just say this and they Copy link
1:20:47 why did they do this like you know this disconnect and then it's like okay now let's repair let's Copy link
1:20:52 let's let's come back to connection but yeah there was a part of me that like I really felt like one Copy link
1:20:59 of the reasons that I increased the meditation time was to be able to be more present in the Copy link
1:21:03 moment where the discussions are happening and not kind of like bite the bait of like I'm gonna argue Copy link
1:21:09 this and i'm going to prove that i'm lonely you know i'm glad you made it back here safe and Copy link
1:21:19 yeah my heart goes for people who suffered um for all these two wars back in iran yeah coming back Copy link
1:21:28 to here uh to this room in san francisco after all these experiences all these journeys right Copy link
1:21:35 your tech work um you working the spiritual working through the spiritual path and um Copy link
1:21:43 now you teach meditation uh what is a good life what is a life worth living Copy link
1:21:53 i think like what i aspire to do like in life not it's not a external thing it's more of what Copy link
1:22:02 I talked before it's like it's a life that is in like moving towards more surrender to life let's Copy link
1:22:08 dance with life life is life takes you places let it take you places it's not much about like Copy link
1:22:15 oh I want to do this or that or that it's more that like can I allow life to happen Copy link
1:22:25 or do I want to hold on to Copy link
1:22:27 control and planning Copy link
1:22:28 and like Copy link
1:22:30 can I trust Copy link
1:22:32 life enough Copy link
1:22:34 that I'm held and it will Copy link
1:22:36 it will guide me Copy link
1:22:39 I hear surrender Copy link
1:22:40 yeah Copy link
1:22:42 yeah Copy link
1:22:44 I think that's a good place to end Copy link
1:22:46 any final thoughts Copy link
1:22:48 comments Copy link
1:22:51 thank you Copy link
1:22:52 so much Abusjoon Copy link
1:22:53 for giving me this space and time to talk um it actually feels like again it's healing for me I Copy link
1:23:03 feel like a release in my body it's healing for me to talk about this and for you to allowing Copy link
1:23:09 giving me the space to do it I feel yeah maybe I started with more you know some more excitement Copy link
1:23:16 a little bit more anxiety but now I feel like this openness like it's like oh it's like some Copy link
1:23:23 release some more openness Copy link
1:23:25 more freedom, thank you Copy link
1:23:26 I feel your openness Copy link
1:23:28 I'm deeply grateful for you taking the time Copy link
1:23:31 and having this lovely chat Copy link
1:23:34 hopefully for more of you to come Copy link
1:23:36 absolutely Copy link
1:23:37 I would love to Copy link
1:23:39 see more episodes from you Copy link
1:23:40 I watched the first one, it was lovely Copy link
1:23:43 thanks for bringing Copy link
1:23:45 all these beautiful voices Copy link
1:23:47 to my life Copy link
1:23:48 you will be my first returning Copy link
1:23:53 Thank you. Copy link